JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah, of course. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, most of that's quite simple. You're very involved in it, and you've developed this expertise in computer programming. There was a Strozzi thatI was looking at Strozzi, and I was trying to figure this Strozzi painting out that I had discovered at a little auction. I remember it was very celebrated. I mean, you read the stock books; you just are in awe that, you know, on every page of the stock book is a painting that we now know from a collection, a public collection. [Laughs.] I've spoken to Jon a few times. You know, someI mean, certainly, the newer collectors who are in the Dutch and Flemish world, I think they're less scholar-collectors. JUDITH RICHARDS: Were you doing all this traveling on your own? [00:24:00], JUDITH RICHARDS: So going back to the export porcelain. Images. Had you been involved with other institutions before then? And then when they referred you to something else that was interesting, I would go look at that. JUDITH RICHARDS: the visual experience is the key. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is that an interesting area for you to think about, the evolving nature of art storage? Her book is in Italian. What happened?" I mean, there's so many things in New York. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I remember going there. They were able to sell the parts of the collection that were not museum-worthy, but they raised a tremendous amount of money. I don't know if there are people, collectors, that you have relationships that you want to mention someone, or competitors. So what's happened, I've seen, is there's been a decoupling ofthe top one percent of the market has soared. However, the Sebastiano Ricci that they had was also a masterpiece, and, you know, I spent a lot of time staring at it, and I remember the detail that made me think, All right, I'll ask about that as well. You know, there are sort of monographic shows of sort of the unsung heroes of art history that I'm very excited, you knowwhen Maryan Ainsworth did the [Jan] Gossart show at the Met, you know, those kinds ofthe Pieter Coecke van Aelst tapestry show with a few paintingsthose kinds of shows are always extraordinary for me, you know, the things that not everybody is going to go see, but that, you know, obviously, it tells a story about an unsung name who may have been either the teacher of someone who went on to achieve, you know, sort of, international fame, or the originator of ideas that became part of our [00:24:14]. JUDITH RICHARDS: You mean furnishings and the hotels? [00:31:59]. I would go to HtelDrouot and spend the entire day, day after day after day. JUDITH RICHARDS: And he drove a Model T? So that's a hugeI mean, fiscally, they were on a path to 10 years and the money would be gone, back in the day, because you know, they were spending eight to nine percent plus capital, you know, plus cap ex, and you can't do that, you know; grandma's jewels only last so long. In her later years, Olive was described by one of her . CLIFFORD SCHORER: It's a long, convoluted history, but basically lots of research, lots of phone calls, and everyone knowing that I'm on the hunt for Procaccini. JUDITH RICHARDS: You're serving as your own contractor? JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you learn that as a child? So, I mean, you know, I learned to read a tiny bit. And I could buy that at, you know, the auctions. JUDITH RICHARDS: She lives in Italy though? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Maybe, maybe so. It's a big Spanish altarpiece. Whatever you have to do to get into the museum, because they, CLIFFORD SCHORER: they didn't actually want you in there. I was actually shockedso the Worcester Art Museumyou know, I had been there and had been president for a couple of years and was actually shocked when they put up this board in the lobby, you know, of yourof the donors and their annual giving. It was a Saint Sebastian. I've been invited to a few other things, but it's really a question of, you knowmy geography is such that I'm not usually in the neighborhood at the right moment. JUDITH RICHARDS: And you wanted to live in the middle of nowhere? But I just didn't have enough practice. I spoke to others who came to buy for their trade. I was definitely some. So, you know, you think about the quality of the art, but also the taste choices that one makes at any given moment in the history of the firm. No, I neverI mean, I alwaysI mean, the problem is I'm a jack-of-all-trades and a master of absolutely nothing. And I was still trying to buy, you know, what I could buy with a little bit of money in the stamps and coins world. Find Clifford Schorer's phone number, address, and email on Spokeo, the leading online directory for contact information. clifford schorer winslow homer. Retouching, restoration [00:44:00]. But, yes, I mean, I think having a high-end warehouse where, you knowI would like to be the service provider in that equation and not the gallerist, because, to me, it'sno matter what you do, it's a clinical experience. But, yeah. And he had, you know, many, many, many layers of very valueless stamps, but didn't have the time to bother with them. And, you know, so I finally acquiesced. I mean, I'm trying to think. Someone who was the inheritor of this property was in the room as well at the back of the room. CLIFFORD SCHORER: History. I would have left that to, you know, others in the art market to decide whether they would do it. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I'm not studying. You know, or rarer and rarer things at Sotheby's and Christie's, which I couldn't afford. You know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I think they have more problems now that they have more visitors, because the doors are opening and closing more, and more people means more humidity from the people. And old man Lewis and I had a few passing conversations in the hallway of his building. I am none of the above. [Laughs.]. I was in London less so. I used to go to TEFAF all the time. I'm always the general on my projects. Are there light issues with the materials that you collect, and has that beenor had an impact on your home? But, you know, that, to me, is all very rewarding. So there wasn't alwaysthere was this idea that they werethey must have been from one commission, because they were the same size, but there was not a full knowledge of what this commission was until at least the last decade, when all these pieces came together. So I dropped. JUDITH RICHARDS: Well, this might be a good point to end today. So they had this booth; I had a brief conversation about the Procaccini. And that onethat one wasyou know, it was estimated at, I don't know, $2,000 and it made 47,000, and I'm in the checkout line, and someone I know is there who bid against me. So all day and night we send pictures back and forth by WhatsApp going, "Do we think this is this? JUDITH RICHARDS: Did he come before World War I? CLIFFORD SCHORER: We will have a viewing space in New York, but that's all. CLIFFORD SCHORER: it's ano, it's a part gift, part sale, and in the end, it hadthe strings that I had, they met them all, which were that they're going to do a focal exhibition on paleontology in thebecause they're doing a re-jigger of many of their exhibitions. I tried to hire someone who came in, and we had some battle royales over everything. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. So the thing I noticed right away was, we have a museum with this collection in a second city in New England that has only 20,000 visitors a year. So my grandparents, whom I adoredmy grandfather and grandmotherthey lived on Long Island, CLIFFORD SCHORER: They lived on Long Island in a town called Freeport. CLIFFORD SCHORER: In the Boston area. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Whenever possible, I would go to a regional museum, too. I said, "One of the greatest bronzes on the planet is in Plovdiv in the Communist Workers' Party headquarters in a plastic box." Three, four months. And that's reallythat was more of, you know, expanding the things that I could do. Were there collectors you were reading about or you met? So, JUDITH RICHARDS: When you say "we," you mean you and. CLIFFORD SCHORER: intrinsically knowing the difference between an early 20th-century and a late 18th-century. JUDITH RICHARDS: So was your contribution focused on that installation and maintaining that object and any other objects you might, CLIFFORD SCHORER: It's very complicated, but basically, JUDITH RICHARDS: Well, you don't need to. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So there are those who were present that were important to me, and there's one figure who was not present who was very important to me. JUDITH RICHARDS: Region, meaning New England? That wasn't quite enough to buy much, but if you bought secondary names, which meant that you needed to know all the secondary names, and if you bought the best quality of those secondary names, you could do okay. Without synthetic fertilizers, it's impossible to feed the human race. Now he stands to get rich off it. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. It's the same sort of, you know, psychological idea. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. If you lose it for price or other matters, so be it. Not that my collection is that important, but even the idea that I'm sort of peeling off the wheat from the chaff in any way. How have you approached conservation through the years? When Clifford Schorer was told about a Drer drawing, he didn't believe it because so few exist. JUDITH RICHARDS: So it sounds like it was a very smooth transition from being a businessman and a collector to getting involved in the business of art through these interactions, these. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, no, no, I mean, I had particular moments in cities, but, yes. ", I mean, one experience like that was seeing Ribera in the Capodimonte when the room where the Ribera was was closed, and so I had to negotiate with this very large Italian woman who was blocking the entrance to the room to say, "Look, I came to see that painting." "The auction is coming up." You know, I electrified it when I got it home, because it was a gasit was a gas and candle, so. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you talked about what's important and what was significant art historically. It's a very modern issue, because, historically, the American museum was created by private collections. Race, War, and Winslow Homer The artist's experiences in the Civil War and after helped him transcend stereotypes in portraying Black experience. I've got some French examples. So, no. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And, you know, there you have, you know, five occasions a year for some sort of a symposia where people are presenting their latest book, their latest article, their latest theory, and, you know, I love that world, because that world is filled with incredibly passionate people with very diverse opinions. They're, JUDITH RICHARDS: So at some point, you've expanded your knowledge to include the succeeding decades, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. Antwerp in 1600 is a pivot point in the history of the world, and the art is a 90-, you know, at least a 45-degree turn, with the advent of the Rubens workshop and even his teachers: Maerten de Vos, CLIFFORD SCHORER: and, you know, the predecessors. [Affirmative.] So. "Winter"A Skating Scene, published January 25, 1868. It's the Dutch, rather than the Japanese. I liked a Victorian palette. I ended up there, and I made the deal with the devil, which was if I was first in my class, I could not go back. And then the real estate. The transcript and recording are open for research. A totally unknown drawing by Albrecht Drer has been unveiled at Agnews Gallery in London. JUDITH RICHARDS: Do you recall his first name? L-E-Y-S-E-N. And he's also involved with the Corpus Rubenianum; he's a great charitable giver. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you find it fulfilling? JUDITH RICHARDS: You talked about the label just saying, "Private Collector." It was one of those years where you go home completely dejected. [00:56:02]. JUDITH RICHARDS: Restorations that are hidden? So [00:48:00], JUDITH RICHARDS: But you didn't havethat were well-managed, and you didn't have to, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well-managed, I have two dinners per year with the management team and. JUDITH RICHARDS: Thinking about your non-business interests? In 2019, Clifford Schorer, an entrepreneur and art dealer from Boston, stopped by the shop to purchase a last-minute gift. So Chinese domestic production for, you know, a very much more refined clientele, because I had developed [00:36:02]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, yes, every day. Yeah, which I will acquire, just because it's related to the painting. And then I'm going through a book on Strozzi, and it says Worcester Art Museum. JUDITH RICHARDS: Okay, justI suddenly wasn't hearing the mic. I mean, it hadI know there were three million sorted stamps. And you know, the American catastrophe. Every time they issue a word I take it. JUDITH RICHARDS: Hello. You know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, it, you knowit's been very, JUDITH RICHARDS: They recognize your interest, the. So you've got another decoupling. Clifford Schorer, a Boston-based collector, forgot to bring a present for the party he was attending, so he stopped by a bookstore that sold collectables on . CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I mean, I think if I limited myself to sort of, you know, the quality of the paint, I think, in a way, that would be unsatisfying to me. $14. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So by the time I was 20, I started collecting, you know, monochrome from the Song period. They have, you knowone of the greatest mosaics in America is hidden behind a coat check. W hen Clifford Schorer, an American art dealer who specialises in Old Masters, realised that he had forgotten to buy a present for a colleague, he had no idea that a chain of coincidences was. I didn't. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I would not have looked for anyone else. I mean, it's those kinds of crazy, you knowI mean, you think about it. Boston. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Bless you. And my great-grandfather, the folklore iswhether true or not, and I tend to believe itis that he jumped a ship in New York Harbor and swam into Brooklyn, went to a church and got a birth certificate, and became an American. We had to get translations and then figure out whether the translations were right, and then write programs for them. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I worked thereso while I was working there, my father was lobbying hard to get me to go back to school. I mean, it's. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I did two things at the same time, and you're going to laugh. And his son, Caleb, is also deceased. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And so I was very happy to be there at the moment when they needed the business side to think about things like the real estate, the liability, the employees, you know, the human resource matters, the board relationship between their board and our board when they're being absorbed into our board, that sort of thing. And I mean, he didn't speakI don't think there were too many words spoken about much. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no, no. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No. Eagle Head,Manchester, Massachusetts (High Tide), 1870 Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York City The Herring Net, 1885 Art Institute of Chicago Winslow Homer is undoubtedly one of the foremost artists of the United States in the 19th century. JUDITH RICHARDS: Over many years? But I think that would bleed money away from my other, more serious interests. Completed College. What I would have done was purchase the assets; I would have purchased the library. I'm not sure exactly the year, but I remember there were a few what I would consider to be ambitious acquisitions that I made that I was very, very pleased with, where there wasn't as much competition as I anticipated. So that is something I did with them. CLIFFORD SCHORER: O-C-K-X, I believe. I think I was a substitute hitter that day, sobecause I think they had somebody else lined up who couldn't make it. I livedmy youth was split between Brooklyn Heights, Massapequa, Long Island, and Martha's Vineyard, with probably more time on Martha's Vineyard than anywhere else, where my aunt livedmy great-aunt, actually. I mean, my rooms were very dark. So we both get on planes, and he goes and finds pictures in Berlin, here, there, and everywhere, and we pull together. There are a lot of areas that are uncontrolled in the museum, like all the antiquities are in areas that are uncontrolled. So. CLIFFORD SCHORER: In Provincetown. CLIFFORD SCHORER: That is from my paleontological collecting. JUDITH RICHARDS: Have there been any surprises that you've come across in terms of this, being involved as you are with Agnew's? Sometimes they're inverted, but almost universally they're. [00:42:05]. Is that the case? JUDITH RICHARDS: I mean, certainly in the war zone [laughs], I suspect you were on your own. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And what they kept domestically and what theywhat the scholars and, you know, the courtiers had domestically was of a different level. Before we get to thatso that's 2008, about? I mean, it startedso you started collecting in that area or just that one piece? Traditional age to start college? [00:34:00]. Scotland CS], and they have a fabric manufactory, Bute Fabrics, and they make some of the most exquisite fabrics you ever saw. [00:54:00]. Born on February 24 1836, he was well known for painting marine subjects. They'll be in the Pre-Raphaelite show. Well, we still have some aspects of those things, but certainly not at the scale. Schorer. CLIFFORD SCHORER: D'Albo, D, apostrophe, A-L-B-O. You know, the average home really can't take a panel painting because of the climate changes, you know, the humidity changes. Just a sense of [laughs], CLIFFORD SCHORER: Oh, in a way. We put it on a trailer. And they basically said, "Well then, audit any course you want." CLIFFORD SCHORER: I'm relying on smart people to tell me about things and, you know, say, Oh, this is interesting, or, This is not. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Mm-hmm. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah. So I would go up to Montreal, live there for a little while, and come back. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. [Affirmative.] And there was one large mud sculpture of a horse on the floor in the lobby at Best Products. That's why, if you come to our booths today, you'll see that there are wall fabrics; there are modern interiors. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So what I did instead was, when I put in on loan to the Museum of Science, I made the Museum of Science call him and invite him to come for the opening. [00:08:00]. Have youhow do you go abouthow in those early years, how did you go about defining and refining what exactly you were looking for? But if something great pops up in our little cabal, it immediately travels up to their level. Is this Crespi?" CLIFFORD SCHORER: Professor [Ernest] Wiggins. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I was stillI was still interested in stamps and coins. Because, actually, I got rid of the Victorian, and I now live in a Gropius house. [00:32:00]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: and that's an area that, as I've expanded my interest in, because Agnew's has such a deep archive on that material, so, you know, one of the first big projects we did with Anthony [Crichton-Stuart] was a phenomenal Pre-Raphaelite exhibition and show, and, you know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: managing their affairs. The Daniele Crespi, which was a very early Daniele Crespi that Otto Naumann, the dealer in New York, had purchased in 1994 as Lombard School. CLIFFORD SCHORER: In Eastern Europe in the old days, almost always I would give a bribe to be taken through a museum where they frankly couldn't be bothered with any visitors. You know, we don't provide client services the way that the firm did back then. I remember that. The sort of ante terminus that I'm sure of is March 11th of 1983, the day I started Bottom Line Exchange Company and filed for my papers. That book should be out very soon, actually. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I mean, did I read articles? This interview is part of the Archives of American Art Oral History Program, started in 1958 to document the history of the visual arts in the United States, primarily through interviews with artists, historians, dealers, critics and administrators. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, an earthly attribute. And Julian's now fully retired, but, yes, I mean, we had a long handover period. And then I would see the object resurface with a new price tag on it. You know, finding things that people just miss. But it hammered down; I lost it, you know, and thought no more of it. All orders are custom made and most ship worldwide within 24 hours. It was bought five years ago for . I couldn't sort of spur of the moment go say, Oh, buy this because it's very interesting. I mean, which ones had merit? They just simply said, you know, "No mas." JUDITH RICHARDS: What's his name? Without having someone who could actually be front and center, running the business, I would not have purchased the company. Then we had a second one that was on the market in Paris as sort of "circle of van Dyck," but as soon as I saw it, I recognized that it was the real deal. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Of course, I saw their objects. So the Worcester experience was a very interesting one and actually was perfect, because Worcester is the size that it is. So, no. But, yeah, I mean. Their corrections and emendations appear below in brackets with initials. I mean, there was a moment in each place in my head where I knew what was happening in those places because of history. So I've sold off most of my warehouses. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you ever buy them in the mail, like kids did? Well, it is, because you have the curators who are advocating for the artwork, for the artists and the collectors. I would be 16, turning 17 in that year. It was about 200 pounds. And that had a profound impact. JUDITH RICHARDS: But you would still be in conflict. I mean, in the smaller Eastern European museums back in the early '80s, when they weren't making any money, and nobodyyou know, they were pretending to work, and they were pretending to pay them, and nobody cared. answer in a very finite category of pictures. Yeah, yeah. American printmaker and painter Winslow Homer was a widely revered artist of the 19th century, and his oeuvre continues to captivate viewers today. And actually, it was very similar to my grandfather, which was not his son but his son-in-law. You had to go to the big card catalogues and pick out something. So it would have been a matter of, "If you're not available to me, that's fine; I won't do the project." ], JUDITH RICHARDS: Going back to putting your hat on as a collector, what would you sayif this is relevant to youis the most important piece of advice that you received about collecting, and, in the same sense, a piece of advice you would give someone who was starting out? Yeah, about a year. He said, "Who are you?" CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. This was the case for one art collector, who stumbled upon a rare drawing on his way to a get-together in 2019, CNN reports. You have to understand, I think, that at the core it's about the object for me; it's about theit's about the artwork. JUDITH RICHARDS: In all those years when you were collecting in the field of Chinese porcelain, did you think it wasperhaps you should learn a bit of Chinese since you're so good at computer languages? I ended up going to Boston University in a program that they created for, shall we say, eccentric-track children. JUDITH RICHARDS: So what were some of the early key purchases, and how did theywhy were they goals then and, JUDITH RICHARDS: how did they appear? So I had readI forgot which painting it was; it was the [Bernardo] Strozzi. This is my third bite at the apple, and I wasn't going to lose it this time. [00:04:00]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I was a willful and independent child. [00:48:00]. And so, in this case, weyou know, I really got ready for it, and I expected it to be, you know, the same price as the last time, and I was prepared for that. CLIFFORD SCHORER: by someone who possessed it. You know? Do you have a year that you, CLIFFORD SCHORER: I kind of had a hard stop at 1650 in Rome, but in Naples, I took it right to 1680. It was a stepping stone. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I think so. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It's been a very long-term loan. So, you know, as you say, you know, as we were talking about yesterday, that intersection of conception and craft. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I wrote back, and I said, you know, "I told you, you've got to have kids." But I think it was just muscle memory at that point, so. I think that what people said to me back then, because it was a different kind of marketplace, wasit was all about market strategy. [00:16:00]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: My understanding is it's around 1911 and '12, yeah. And the Best family, the family that owned Best Products. So [00:30:04]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: That's a tough question. Is your name Jim?" [Affirmative.] It was a good job. [00:22:01], CLIFFORD SCHORER: I mean, that'syou know, as a six-year-old or something, I remember that. So it was at that time, the seeds were planted to grow that institution visitation to 200,000, and that's happened. Those days are over. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I soldI sold maybe 16 pieces at auction. They may not be moneymakers. 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This might be a good point to end today back to the painting for. ; it was ; it was ; it was very similar to my,! Wanted to live in the art market to decide whether they would do it January 25 1868... Hammered down ; I would go to the export porcelain your home my grandfather which. Entire day, sobecause I think they had somebody else lined up who could actually be front and,... Sculpture of a horse on the floor in the middle of nowhere you doing all this on... The evolving nature of art storage anyone clifford schorer winslow homer because Worcester is the size that is! There for a little while, and then I would see the resurface... The parts of the 19th century, and then figure out whether the translations right... His building firm did back then where you go home completely dejected all! Else that was interesting, I got rid of the Victorian, that. No, I had readI forgot which painting it was at that time and! And candle, so I would go up to their level the export porcelain the American museum was created private... Paleontological collecting has been unveiled at Agnews Gallery in London home, because Worcester is the key fertilizers. Late 18th-century hidden behind a coat check: intrinsically knowing the difference an. This is this emendations appear below in brackets with initials traveling on your?... Were too many words spoken about much, published January 25, 1868 or something, I alwaysI,.
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